Increase the number of horses per member and level.

  • @Serenity-Gwin said in Increase the number of horses per member and level.:

    @Elsie-Spectre I think phantom horses should be brought down a level, I know it takes 10 horses for a full class, but I feel like the smaller shows that don't get a lot of entries. With a past show I entered in, only 3 members entered in the level my horse was eligible to enter in, but we still went against 7 phantoms, and the phantoms held the 1st-6th spots so none of the members gained points at all.
    In smaller shows or classes with not enough entries in it to make it to 10, I dunno if it is even possible but to, but if there's not enough horses for the placing to be 1-6 then add phantoms in but only to contradict the number of horses in.
    Uhhhm so like if there were only 3 horses entered in this class in total, then only 3 phantoms could be put in to compete against them that way people can still gain points and prize money. Kinda starting to give up with the discipline in question because there aren't enough entries in the level my horse competes at.
    Kinda glad someone brought up phantoms

    I agree. Especially in the less popular disciplines. With most of the western ppl gone, those classes are small. English Pleasure, Fine Harness, and Country Pleasure aren't as popular either so those entries are small too. It makes it harder to level up horses if phantoms keep getting all the placements.

  • Phantoms were brought in, partly, so that no one person could win an entire class. What if one person switches to a low level or less popular discipline solely to take advantage of this system? Spamming a discipline with only their horses and thus making payout direct to only one person. Sure, you can say this is the person's advantage to entering a less popular discipline, but again, we try to balance the economy and flow of money, so funneling to a single or only a few players is not fair. Why should one be guaranteed benefit in one discipline, but not in another?

    I know some have said it "feels" better to lose against members than against phantoms, but probability-wise, it's the same and was introduced to balance this. It feels frustrating to lose consistently and seeing phantoms win instead of other players makes this frustration greater, but one can be consistently bad and have a horse not advancing in a popular discipline just the same amount.

    In my experience, what has affected this most is balance of shows. From my understanding, this has gotten better, but in the past, not many as member-hosted shows existed for saddle seat, driving, and some of the other events as for the bigger ones. Thus, what affected a slow progression in my horses was not the lack of other members in the class, but a lack of member-hosted shows.

    Now, I will preface this next bit with that before I took a break, I was very diligent about entering shows and finding leasers if I couldn't enter shows. I showed horses nearly as soon as they were registered and rarely missed one. So let's have some examples.

    I have one horse with ID 10027 in Draft Horse Showing that has 195 pts. That's an old ID, right? Long time, eh? However, I have a horse with ID 10003, competing for the same length of time, with only 187 pts in Eventing. Draft Horse Showing is a much smaller discipline than Eventing, yet it has made almost no difference in their point gains.

    Here's another group of some of my horses:

    ID#20589 with Trail Pleasure 113 pts/Western Pleasure 118 pts
    ID#20433 with 105 pts in Show Hunters
    ID#20323 with 105 pts in Halter
    ID#20071 with 129 pts in Dressage
    ^in this example (with the exception of the last which is a slightly older horse) the youngest horse, which is in some of the disciplines mentioned in this thread, is actually the most accomplished

    Here's another (in case anyone wants to argue pedigree points):

    ID#27725 with Eventing 61 pts/Show Jumping 64 pts (this horse has +25 in show jumping pedigree bonus)
    ID#27745 with Park Pleasure 42 pts/Fine Harness 72 pts (this horse is foundation)

    And, yes, I realize I have a huge amount of horses to find what I want to show. But I was able to find horses in all different disciplines all made around the same time with about the same amount of points. I was able to find old horses with fewer and young horses with more and vice versa as well. Yes, we all have that unlucky horse or that super lucky one, but statistically, phantoms shouldn't make a difference. They haven't for me.

  • Administrators

    In fact, you've got a small advantage against phantoms compared to members horses since phantoms never have a pedigree bonus.

    Please consider that a major factor of 2.5 is that success is equally achievable in any discipline. Shows are hosted for every discipline with equal frequency, each discipline has the same class sizes, points, and payout. This is important compared to 2.0 where if the association running your discipline wasn't organised, lacked time or staff then your discipline just didn't get many shows and your horses has a very limited opportunity for success compared to an active discipline/association.

    If we were to start reducing the number of phantoms in classes with fewer horses then in the best case we're giving the horses in that class better chances of winning by removing more 'losing' placings, and in the worst case we're causing stacks of confusion and extra rules by rebalancing the point/payout scheme. Either option would give horses in this class a better chance of success than horses in more popular disciplines could achieve, which would break a lot of the work we put into making sure that whatever discipline you picked, you had an equal opportunity for success.

    All points thus far have been based on prefering to lose to other members than to lose to phantoms, which is fair, but not a good basis for change when you have so many more factors to consider :)

  • I think it also stands to mention that classes that have phantoms placing 1 - 6 means the host if member hosted can be hosting shows to take advantage of entry fee's as well, not trying to say anyone is just bringing what is in my thoughts to the table . Especially if its a higher level class with a large entry fee, no member places that's basically free cash into their bank. While yes I understand what members gain in entry fee's normally ends up back to a member one way or another through pay outs it's still something to take into consideration where a smaller class of 3 & 7 could be strictly phantoms placing. Someone somewhere will eventually take advantage when they notice things. It's why I mentioned what I did earlier, along with merging down smaller classes with members understanding while yes they paid the fee for their class they will be running down a class level . Even if its just off setting a class that has 3 member to 4 phantoms so theres still the possiblity of not every member placing 1-6. Merging down a level also helps with the phantom topic all together. I wasn't trying to say "give so and so or myself higher chances of winning" I worded my statement before slightly wrong (lack of sleep xD)

    There's been times where several times in a row horses haven't placed in a certian disipline that was strictly phantom run, I've had it happen in a streak of shows. Classes where it's against horses is one thing because you have all the bonus points/pedigree points. Phantoms however it feels more of a luck of the draw base as though the pedi points don't matter. Several of my horses in the less popular shows haven't advatnced in months point wise because of phantoms and because they kept being beat out by phantoms I simply said enough and put the horse in a "frozen" state as it was never going forward despite having even a pedi bonus.

  • Competition Committee

    As I am part of the CC, I can tell you that most of the time those small shows doesn't have a member applying to host them, it is usually an EC hosting the member ones as well and if we hadn't stepped in to do so, then the show just wouldn't get hosted at all and those shows would end up being hosted once per month while all others get hosted twice per month. I had to say this because it does feel a bit unfair that you are saying that we might take advantage of the situation, while what we really are trying to do is giving you as much chance of entering shows as everyone else.

    That being said, I can also tell you that I host a lot of small disciplines, both for the CC and as a member host, and my experience is that most of the time the member horse places, even if all the other entries are phantoms. Sure they might not get a 1st place, but they do place most of the time. I also think that, what Elsie is trying to say (please do tell me if I misunderstood you dear), is that if they lower the amount of entries in a sub-class for those smaller disciplines, then they will need to do so with the big disciplines like show jumping, eventing and dressage as well. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair. And that would cause other issues like having to raise the entry fees by a lot, since a lot more horses will end up placing and needing payouts, otherwise the bank system will most likely colapse.

  • I understand that. I wasn't saying the CC shows taking advantage, or really in general pointing fingers. But to point out that any system can be taken advantage of. As one of the bigger Western based members (yes I know here is the western vs english thing again, I do both but hear me out please) that side of Equus has lost about 90% of it's members because of several reasons (these reasons I would be more then happy to speak privately with the CC/Mod/Admin team about if need be to be the voice for everything and would love to do so). The reason that applies to all this is the show turnout/phantom vs member debate. My real life revolves around the Western Aspect of the world (I've ridden, showed and trained in western from the time I was a little kid. I've ridden English styles of riding maybe 10 15 times my entire life? So any English knowledge I learned here. WHOO learn something new every day about that area here lol but in all seriousness) so I do better and want to advanced further in those areas rather then my English Stable. It's harder to do when some classes a horse has sat with hardly any points for several months, now it could just be I need to rename that horse to Mr Unlucky or Ms Unlucky that could be all it is but it would be interesting to see if even as a whole we could figure out a system that helped those smaller shows have a better turn out or new placing system until we could grow those areas as a whole. It's why I also suggested merging down classes that had to little horses and mostly phantoms. I think others would be more for this idea then the issue of phantoms as they would feel they were actually advancing in that area against horses that could be seen as better or worse foundation (No offense meant) rather then just "Luck of the placement draw"

  • Competition Committee

    I feel your pain I really do, but as has been stated before, even in those big disciplines it can sometimes be a struggle. I have horses that has been active in every single shows since 2013 and they are still under 50 points, so it's not just in smaller disciplines it is a struggle. And I know a lot of other members who are competing in the big 3 disciplines has this issue. So if they were to make a change to the smaller disciplines, then they would need to apply that change to the big 3 as well, otherwise a lot of members would be raising hell, because it would be unfair.

    I had a few horses in the western disciplines before, and they did pretty well. My issue was that I know zero about western and that stoped me from fully enjoy competing in those disciplines. So maybe the solution would be to try and get people interested in, for example, the western disciplines and that way maybe those disciplines could fill up a bit more? Although, as a member I don't have much to say in this, it all comes down to Elsie and the rest of the mods/admins :slight_smile:

  • @Treyvor-Storm said in Increase the number of horses per member and level.:

    Classes where it's against horses is one thing because you have all the bonus points/pedigree points. Phantoms however it feels more of a luck of the draw base as though the pedi points don't matter. Several of my horses in the less popular shows haven't advatnced in months point wise because of phantoms and because they kept being beat out by phantoms I simply said enough and put the horse in a "frozen" state as it was never going forward despite having even a pedi bonus.

    This is a slightly different debate. Pedigree bonuses were never supposed to guarantee quicker advancement over foundation horses. It gives a RP-edge and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't (see my last example). This is how the system was designed to work. If it wasn't, then foundations would be extremely disadvantaged and we'd hear the debate about why foundations were unfavored. So I'm not quite understanding the comparison of phantoms with pedigreed horses and/or foundations.

    I've also not quite understanding how horses aren't advancing in level? Even with non-placement, the system is designed to progress the level of a horse. Yes, it is a slower progression, but it was added for the reason of the very unlucky horse. See below taken from this post:


    Your horse will progress to higher level if one of the statements below is met:
    Horse has placed 1st, 2nd or 3rd specific amount of times in its current level, depending on the level OR
    Horse has competed at current level specific amount of times and did not place well.
    alt text
    That means that horses who place better have a chance to level up quicker than those who perform worse. However, horses that perform worse will not be stuck at a level forever. Results are still based on randomization and there is no personal influence influence on the results.

    Unless you are referring to progression as points only, but throughout the thread this is seems to be either used at the same time or vaguely that I'm not quite getting if points and titles is the only thing for debate or if level also is being thrown into the mix. And if it is points/titles thing, I stand by examples of horses in small disciplines having the same as horses in large disciplines.

  • Administrators

    This is a very small aside relating to 'member hosts taking advantage of phantoms placing as a way to send less winnings'

    Member hosts are reimbursed as : 5k plus any money they lost in fees vs payouts.
    Because of the show balancing, hosts always lose some money, so members can make a profit.
    If a host somehow doesn't lose money, then they are reimbursed as: 5k minus any profit made.

    This ensures they end up with 5k (and only 5k) more money at the end of the show, as their reward :)

    If something strange happened and the host had more profit than 5k... Then we'd see this on the docs which tell us how much to send, and we'd get our :mag: and get a good look at what's going on. This hasn't ever needed to happen yet - love you, hosts!

  • Competition Committee

    @Elsie-Spectre I have hosted those tiny shows with like 7-10 entries in each show and so far I haven't made a profit in those :'D As a host I mostly loose money. I did however make a profit of 400 I think it was in pony show jumping, but like you said that got balanced out with the reimbursment and I got 4600 instead of 5000.

    I can remember wrong with the numbers, but I think I made a somewhat good example anyway xD

Log in to reply

Looks like your connection to EQUUS | Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.