White Spotting/Splash in Arabians
Following the decision several months back to lift the rare fees on all rare colored horses and implement realistic and unrealistic registration options, a few small changes should be made to the master breed list for Arabians. Some of the restrictions that were set prior to this were purposefully made less restrictive as we erred on the side of caution, not wanting to upset Equus members who already owned horses of certain color-strain combinations. Now that members don't need to pay rare fees and can register their horses regardless of the restrictions, I'd like to make some amendments to the Master Breed List on what is possible in specific strains of Arabians for realistic registrations.
For Straight Egyptian Arabians, white spotting(or Sabino) should be changed from med-high being rare to having only minimal white spotting be possible, with it made clear that only minimal splash is possible as rare. After another entire year of searching on the registry's database, online forums used by breeders, and countless other sites, I have not found a single example of more than minimal sabino/white spotted horses or a single moderately marked splash horse. In fact, I've never seen a Straight Egyptian horse with stockings extending up to the elbows or past the gaskin, and none with facial white extending to the midjaw. I've only found a single example of a Straight Egyptian with ANY body white not caused by rabicano, and it was only a few small dots along the armpits on a colt who was gelded for having 'too much white'. This colt's markings still fell within the definition of the MBL's 'minimal' white spotting. I have also never found an example of a blue eyed horse of this strain, and suspect that had there ever been any, they would have been sold without papers.
Some examples of what is more typical for horses of this pattern in this strain:
http://www.easternstararabians.com/images/shabha_latifa_1-x3.jpg pedigree here and here
http://www.easternstararabians.com/images/amir 2527x386.jpg pedigree here and here
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/b7/02/4e/b7024ea9396b2efabc462569bef6a505.jpg pedigree here
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/1669/102/Horse_Imperial_Baarez-_2big.jpg pedigree here
http://midnightsunshineegyptians.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/538132_402935046415114_722580627_n.jpg pedigree here
http://www.easternstararabians.com/images/img_2321.jpg pedigree here
http://midnightsunshineegyptians.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Foxy-Flame-41.jpg pedigree here
http://www.alameenarabians.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/farettatrot.jpg pedigree here
http://www.alameenarabians.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/rasheeda0120-15-9669web-300x240.jpg pedigree here
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/bb/ba/a7/bbbaa7e2223738e5bd1ab9088a6f76d7.jpg pedigree here
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/87/d6/75/87d675abfdd8f28c1914f8edcdfe2553.jpg pediree here
For Spanish Arabian's I would like to see white spotting changed to only allow minimal as well, as I have not found any examples of horses with more than stockings and blazes for this strain despite lots of thorough searching.
Some examples of what is more typical for horses of this pattern in this strain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXCKi7tdvjA pedigree here
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/23/ea/d8/23ead81994d40f96c6ed4ef07453a887.jpg pedigree here
http://cdn.pedegru.com/Photos/48acb12d-d1f5-4769-b151-d3773044cc33/p_media-original.png pedigree here
http://www.rogersarabians.com/images/dulce_sonrisa/2015dulce_sonrisa_3381-12.jpg pedigree here
http://www.rogersarabians.com/mares/brieaki.html pedigree here
http://images58.fotki.com/v449/photos/9/9890/17005/ZAZZAKI-vi.jpg pedigree here
http://ganymede.meccahosting.com/~a0003101/ElMoraduke_75csGalero-FatimaUSTT.jpg pedigree here
http://images115.fotki.com/v1194/photos/9/9890/17005/WNkhaledggsamirxoromana-vi.jpg pedigree here
http://images52.fotki.com/v639/photos/9/9890/17005/WNMIKERIDA-vi.jpg pedigree here
The white markings in both strains are much more in line with those found in horses with W20 than other White Spotting patterns, such as W15 or W19.
All the other strains are accurate and should be left unchanged.
I encourage anyone with any evidence that counters my own to please post it here in this thread.
I just want to give everyone one last chance if anyone has any counter-arguments/evidence before this is approved? I'll wait a week or so and then we'll update.
Sorry for the late reply but myself and other Arabian breeders in the community did a little research.
While hard to find, it wasn't impossible, and there are some severe politics that have gone on, in the past and somewhat ongoing that prevented 'too much white' being registered. Really based on this knowledge, who knows how many pure Arabians SE and otherwise were more excessively colored.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AE9cF4Xez-uEGHgxiZMQ3XQD9Och2RGcY74GlOtEB2I/edit <<< Everything should be explained in there.
Alex, do you have any images of any still-living verifiable SEAs who have more than minimal sabino markings?
All of the horses you have images of are either non-verifiable, do not meet the bloodline standards of Straight Egyptians, or are what fall in the category of minimal sabino/white spotting for Equus. All the horses you have shown me appear to be W20 or another white spotting variant gene that functions similarly by putting socks and blazes on horses and occasionally limited belly white. Since it’s entirely possible for White Spotting genes to cause no more than minimal markings, the horses you showed me are not at all indicative of louder white spotting patterns existing in the breeding populace for this strain.
While it is known that there were once Arabians described as ‘parti-colored’ in Arabia and possibly Egypt, this does not seem to be the case today as all the louder colored horses that were imported to Crabbet stud did not leave SEA descendants with these louder markings, as most such horses were coveted by Lady Wentworth of Crabbet stud, whom as you likely are aware, crossed them all with the blood of Skowronek, along with non-Egyptian Desertbreds which included horses from the Bedouin themselves. While there may at one time or another been louder sabinos in the SEA population, these recordings were over a hundred years ago and it’s very likely these horses died out, especially since horse-breeding was in decline in Egypt at the time of these recordings.
If you could find some non-Egyptian Desertbreds who meet the criteria of moderate sabino/white spotting, I would happily support the addition of a new strain for Desertbred and/or Asil horses that do not meet the criteria of SEA but are from any Middle Eastern nation, like Bahrain, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc.
Sorry for the late reply I will be replying to this later on today. I have mock exams at the minute so I'm pretty busy.
More research as promised.
1957 http://daughterofthewind.org/hujjah-of-desert-bred-stallion-taamri/ description of the horse.
http://daughterofthewind.org/bahraini-stallions-in-the-flesh/ High white on the legs, possible belly spot hard to tell.
Sire meeting son (son is horse with chrome)
Hard to tell if greying oddly or ablak
Very high white on foreleg though
Unknown if horses are SE but they are all desert bred Saudi, Palastinian, Syrian purebred Arabians, likely from Asil strains.
I would also like white factor to be added to domestic lines, since Khemosabi was domestic, and horses descended from him tend to have quite a bit of white. Khartoon Khlassic, R Khasper (most of R Khaspers get) etc. and quite a few domestic Arabians have Khemosabi in their lines.
but still to say they don't exist when it was because of western politics and misguided belief that they are impure is a misconception and preference at the time. How many have been denied registration and were sent on as grade?
The Purebred 'Sabino' Arabian is not rare by any stretch of the imagination. However, we are just now seeing more and more of them being shown, promoted, and accepted in general. For many, many years, Purebred Arabians who exhibited what some considered "excessive" white were hidden, given away, unregistered, not used in breeding programs, etc.
Further examples of a Egyptains's with sabino:
Barmyre Asseefah 2014 sabino Straight Egyptian Arabian filly (Imperial AmirKamar X ESA Malaaka)
Egyptian Arabian Shahd Elrahman (Agayby x Maqased)
Picture 1: http://www.zilalalhawah.com/assets/img/horses/zaki-ibn-farid-cr/zaki-ibn-farid-cr-l2.jpg
Illustrates sabino spotting on legs.
While I appreciate everything you have gathered, none of it is quite what we are looking for, Alex. All of the horses you have shown me are only evidence of minimal sabino/white spotting existing. All of the horses in this thread that are Straight Egyptian fell well within the definitions of minimal for this pattern. Me and the other BC staff are in agreement that my proposal should go through and so the Master Breed List will be edited. You or anyone else can still of course register your moderate and maximum sabinos of these strains - you will just select unrealistic registration. At this time there is no penalty for unrealistic registration versus realistic, and foals from horses registered as unrealistic ARE eligible for realistic registration in the future. Unrealistic registration will only be necessary for those loud or blue eyed individuals of the SEA or Spanish strains.
Thank you for your time, I apologize that this did not go the way you had hoped.